Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chohung Bank FC

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep Wily D 09:00, 26 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Chohung Bank FC

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

A defunct Korean semi-professional football club. This is a follow-up to AfD of ROK Air Force FC. The three teams nominated for deletion were missed in the previous AfD. Unable to find if they played in any FC cup competition. Bgwhite (talk) 20:28, 16 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. Bgwhite (talk) 20:28, 16 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Bgwhite (talk) 20:28, 16 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delete all Non notable clubs who by the looks of it have never played a professional game. Seasider91 (talk) 21:11, 16 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Delete all - there is no indication that any of these clubs meet WP:GNG. Sir Sputnik (talk) 21:44, 16 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep the existence of the page Gyeongseong FC and Pyongyang FC rivalry and the associated Korean wiki pages makes me nervous about deleting some of the nominated teams. As does the presence of Pyongyang FC in the list of winners of this Korean Tournament in the 1930s - [1]. Nfitz (talk) 02:56, 17 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Chohung Bank FC - Chohung Bank played in the Korea Semi-Professional Football League which at the time was the First Tier league in the South Korean football league system. League records indicate that in 1970 Chohung Bank won the Autumn season competition and in 1971 finished runners-up. There final title was in 1974 when they won the Spring season competition. League Octopus (League Octopus 06:54, 17 July 2012 (UTC))[reply]

Keep Pyongyang FC - This club appears to have historical significance (and sources) if you place Korean Wikipedia into Google Translate or refer to the Gyeongseong FC–Pyongyang FC rivalry. Pyongyang is the capital of North Korea which adds a further dimension. The club won the All Korea Football Tournament in 1934. A Korean expert needs to develop this article. League Octopus (League Octopus 06:54, 17 July 2012 (UTC))[reply]

Keep Cheil Industries FC - Cheil Industries shared the Korea Semi-Professional Football League title in Spring 1964 and Autumn 1968 and finished runners-up in Autumn 1967. They finally won it outright in Spring 1970 with reference to League records. The club won the Korean National Football Championship in 1966 and 1967. League Octopus (League Octopus 06:54, 17 July 2012 (UTC))[reply]

Comment - With reference to AfD of Korea First Bank FC and AfD of ROK Air Force FC, the deletions for Korea First Bank FC, Keumseong Textile Company FC, Korea Coal Corporation FC, Korea Automobile Insurance Company FC, Korea Exchange Bank FC, Seoul Trust Bank FC (also known as Korea Trust Bank FC), Commercial Bank of Korea FC are in my opinion unsound as these clubs played in the Korea Semi-Professional Football League which at the time was the First Tier league in the South Korean football league system. All of these teams appear in the League records with ROK Air Force FC being the exception although even that club was runner-up in the Korean National Football Championship in 1951 and 1976. League Octopus (League Octopus 06:54, 17 July 2012 (UTC))[reply]

With reference to the WP:FOOTYN essay as the above mentioned clubs have played at the national level of the South Korean league structure they are assumed to meet WP:N criteria, the Korean FA Cup having not existed until 1996. League Octopus (League Octopus 07:43, 17 July 2012 (UTC))[reply]

Keumseong Textile Company was runner-up in the Korean National Football Championship in 1965.

Korea Coal Corporation won the Korean National Football Championship in 1964.

Seoul Trust Bank was runner-up in the Korean National Football Championship in 1983. League Octopus (League Octopus 09:11, 17 July 2012 (UTC))[reply]

In light of the above evidence in my view the "Chohung Bank FC Three" should be kept and those deleted in the AfD of Korea First Bank FC and AfD of ROK Air Force FC should be reinstated (with of course some additional work emphasising their notability). The List of South Korean football champions and List of Korean FA Cup winners provides an excellent starting point. League Octopus (League Octopus 09:20, 17 July 2012 (UTC))[reply]

Comment In relation to the notable players for Chohung bank FC there is some discrepancy here as said former players wikipage states he played for a differant club which League octopus has mentioned therefore we must assume this club has had no players of note play for them Seasider91 (talk) 14:56, 17 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - regardless of any sporting notability they may or may not have, more importantly they all fail WP:GNG. Giant Snowman 17:42, 17 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - articles have been significantly improved and now meet notability requirements. Giant Snowman 14:58, 22 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What do you base that bold assertion on? Have you checked for sources in Korean? Phil Bridger (talk) 20:04, 17 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It does seem an odd claim that they fail WP:GNG. Generally when a team is current, and fails WP:GNG and it is hard to find much mention about them on the Internet. But here we have a team that hasn't been around for 70 years, and vanished in a war ... and yet you can find stuff without much effort. Nfitz (talk) 02:33, 18 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

They are three terrible articles in terms of presentation and I can understand GiantSnowman's comments above. I hope that my revamped articles for Chohung Bank FC and Cheil Industries FC gets at least two of the three on the right track. League Octopus (League Octopus 11:14, 18 July 2012 (UTC))[reply]

Comment All articles have been re-written and in my opinion now meet WP:GNG through existing or potential coverage (and there appears to be a lot) in reliable independent sources. With reference to WP:FOOTYN I also raise the issue that as the clubs have competed in the national cup that existed at that time they "are assumed to meet WP:N criteria". It would be nice if some South Korean editors would improve the articles further, in particular the Pyongyang FC article where a lot of material could be translated from the article in Korean Wikipedia. League Octopus (League Octopus 10:22, 19 July 2012 (UTC))[reply]

"The predecessor to the current FA Cup was the National Football Championship that had been staged in every autumn since 1946, with all the senior sides including semi-pro, university and military clubs competing for the right to be called the best team in the peninsula." This confirms the status of the Korean National Football Championship as taken from the Korean FA website. League Octopus (League Octopus 18:51, 19 July 2012 (UTC))[reply]

In light of League octopus' rewrites of the articles with reliable sources I'm now convinced they meet WP:GNG so Keep Seasider91 (talk) 12:07, 20 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Does this mean that some of the deleted articles in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/ROK Air Force FC need to revisited? That AfD doesn't seem to have been very well handled in retrospect. Not sure why we'd be deleting any teams at a semi-professional level; as some of those deleted teams have not only played in a national cup, they have won a national cup, is it safe to assume that most if not all have at least played in a national cup? Seems many editors involved once again fell under the spell of WP:BIAS. Nfitz (talk) 01:38, 21 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I raised this issue earlier this week at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football#Existing and proposed Korean club deletions WT:FOOTY but received little response. I have viewed the deleted articles at eNotes and they need to be totally re-written. While in due course I am willing to undertake this task, it would be much better if the task was undertaken properly by the Korean editor (Footwiks / Pfrd) who prepared them in the first place. There has been misconduct in the form of the User repeatedly recreating articles that were deleted via AfD. (reported on 12 July 2012) and a warning for sockpuppetry but one can understand the reasons why the Korean editor feels so aggrieved (whilst not condoning his actions).

I think that those who over-see the AfD process should now reach a consensus on the best way forward for the unsound Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/ROK Air Force FC deletions and at the very least get back to Footwiks and explain our position. This is not a matter that should be left to fester further. League Octopus (League Octopus 18:41, 21 July 2012 (UTC))[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.